157 | I Hate Meal Plans: What Dietitians Do Instead

Raise your hand if you've ever spent hours creating a meal plan just for the patient, not to follow it. Okay, now I know I'm dating myself here because I realize that chat can create a meal plan in like 0.5 seconds. But if you've been in healthcare before AI, I know you can relate to my frustration. Welcome back to the Exam Room Nutrition Podcast. I'm your host, Colleen Sloan. I'm a PA and dietitian, and today I'm joined by Devin Breeden, a registered dietitian, private practice owner, and nutrition entrepreneur who spends his days unpacking the real life barriers getting in the way of patient progress. In today's episode, we talk about why meal plans usually fail, the simple frameworks Devin uses instead, how he helps patients uncover the real barriers getting in the way of change, and when it's time to stop handing patients another handout and bring a dietitian onto the healthcare team. I love the direction our conversation went, and you're going to want to stick around to the end because Devin shares such practical advice on what providers should actually say when referring a patient to a dietitian. Please don't just say, go see the dietitian, they'll put you on a meal plan. Plus, if you're a dietitian interested in private practice, Devin shares some really good mentoring advice on networking, referrals, and how to get your name out there. And real quick, if you're looking for tools to help your patients with behavior change, maybe you need a little refresher on motivational interviewing or just looking for some new scripts on things to say to patients, check out my behavior change toolkit. It has all of those things I mentioned, plus a customizable patient handbook with habit tracking and a ton of helpful resources for your patient. Just go to the link down in the show notes or exam roomnutrition.com/slash toolkit. All right, well, recording this episode felt like a masterclass in what dietitians really do with patients behind closed doors. So get comfy or drive safe and enjoy my conversation with Devin. Devin, thank you so much for being on my podcast. I feel like you are representing the very few dietitians out there. So thank you so much for being here and welcome to the show. All right. Well, I want to start with a scenario that we have all seen and heard. It's the patient who says, I'm doing everything right. But they either can't lose weight or maybe their labs aren't changing. So I would love to kind of get inside your brain and uh tell us what you are listening for in their response? What are you asking them to maybe really tease out what's going on with this scenario?

Definitely. I think the idea is looking at the fine details in between of things when it comes to nutrition and health. I like with a lot of patients saying, go from the time you wake up, the time you go to bed and no filter. Like, I want to know everything. What makes you tick? What happens? And then we start seeing like, oh, there's a skipped meal, or we see work stress going on, but now we're getting another coffee, or uh, we get home at the end of the day and we're supposed to be going to exercise, but now there's other things that get in the way, right? Uh you've added kids or business or life and all these things kind of unravel. So I think the biggest thing is people have that mindset of being healthy, but I think we've got to look at the big picture of that person in their day because I think that helps us understand a little bit more how we can help them.

Yeah, you know, we all have lives outside of the 20 minutes they spend inside the exam room. There's so much else that goes on outside of our office that we really need to know and understand. And I really like how you looked at the other pillars of health, like sleep, stress, physical activity. And it could be, they could be totally eating perfectly healthy, but their stress levels are totally under out of control or they're sleeping four hours a night, right? Like we do have to take that holistic approach. And I really like how you mentioned that to pull in and observe the other pillars. Now, since my podcast is about nutrition, I'd love to hear, you know, when you walk through a person's typical day, a lot of us are doing 24-hour diet recalls or even just a simple, you know, two to three day recall. What are some patterns that you're seeing that might explain the lack of progress the patient is experiencing?

Uh, one thing I do is when I ask them about how does your day start, like I say, what time do you set your alarm and what time do you get out of bed? And what is the first thing that you're gonna do at that point, right? Is that is the focus on getting a breakfast situated? Is it going to exercise? I think trying to figure out that schedule and how nutrition is playing a role in that. Um, because I have some clients that like to hit snooze and snooze and snooze, and their mindset of being healthy is getting up in the morning, setting that alarm clock, getting up and doing the things they need to do. But now they're an hour behind because they kept snoozing things along. So everything regarding goals and what they want to get is now pushed off, right? So then we look at like, hey, would it be better to prepare for that next day the day before, right? We start looking at maybe it's a planning issue, uh, right. So the the biggest thing is that, you know, we look at the schedule little by little, looking at those little finite details of where things go and unravel with their day. And before we even dive into lunch, dinner, exercise, um I kind of try to look at those fine details. I think having the time that I have available, I'm able to help them kind of see that big picture. And maybe it is just the morning we gotta fix. May not be the rest of the day.

I'm really jealous of dietitians' time that you guys get with um clients because I wish in primary care we got that time. And unfortunately, in the generation of medicine that we're in, we're so rushed and it really is at a detriment and it doesn't help the patients at all, but it is what it is, and it's kind of where we're at. And that's why I think referrals to dietitians is important. And we'll talk about that kind of at the end of the episode. I want to hear your thoughts on referrals and how to make them successful. But, you know, you have so much experience working with patients. So I would love to hear how do you adjust someone's nutrition plan? Like what types of things would you work on first with someone who does want to lose weight and they're, you know, they're working with you for that concern?

Yeah. We could jump right into something like just a caloric deficit, right? The idea of just eating less calories, things would work, right? For most people, obviously their structure doesn't even support that mindset of even getting to that point. So I think what I'm looking at my clients is like, okay, are we, do we have a good plan for our meals throughout the day? Do we have um the support around us to get our health goals met, right? Is there that foundation? A lot of my clients, and this, and I would say I always ask them, like, do you have a loved one that is nearby, say a spouse, to give another, a family member that is on board with your health goals, right? Sometimes with that lack of support that people don't have, and they're like, I'm doing this on my own, and my loved one eats pizza every day, right? So there's that part of getting a barrier to boundary with people around you that your health is the focus right now. If they want to lose weight, they've got to have this support, they've got to have a system in place. They have to work through any negative, make your relationship they have with food, right? So if there's an eating disorder or something underlying, right, is the discussion about weight even appropriate at this point, right? So sometimes I have to determine which direction I go with weight for some of my clients because maybe that's a sensitive subject, right? Being a male dietitian talking to a female about their body, sometimes it's a hard stop. Maybe we're not that that point yet where there's that safety net that I can talk about those things, right? But I think the foundation and structure, if we don't have that from the beginning, you tell them to eat healthier or what to do to eat healthier isn't going to be there because that structure doesn't exist.

Now, I want to linger here a little bit. When you say structure, what do you mean or what does that look like for a person's life?

When it comes to the idea of structure, I think it's like the idea like with the pillars of health, right? Do we have all of these pillars regarding our day-to-day that'll actually allow us to be successful in health, right? You know, are we looking at our stress and how are we managing it? Are we physically active or are we able to be active enough to promote good health outcomes, right? That they know how to cook, how to prepare food, that they have access to food. I think one thing about some of my clientele, um, because I do take Medicaid, I have to be sensitive to the fact that some people don't have the funds or the skill set to prepare meals, right? We got to look at that part. We got to look at the um the family dynamics, the learned behaviors, some of those things, right? Those are all the parts of structure. And I feel like there's different areas we can focus on so that way they're well rounded. Um, I tell a lot of my patients about 10% of my time is spent on nutrition. 90% is spent on creating structure and stability because there's all these other things that are working against nutrition. Because everybody always tells me, I know how to eat healthy, but I can't, or there is this barrier, right? Where's those friction points? So I think those areas of structure, as I said, regarding people's life and just having direction because of everything being solid is where I focus on with most people.

Yeah, and I bet that's probably pretty surprising to some of your clients who came to you expecting, like, just tell me what to eat, you know, put me on a diet, and you're over here spending an hour or multiple sessions really unpacking their day-to-day and their support and their access to foods. And I'm sure, you know, they probably never even thought of it that way. So, what does that look like when you're working with someone? What types of questions do you ask your clients to unpack what their day-to-day looks like?

So, one thing that I started implementing when I do an intake with a client, I do ask them about like, do they have a I ask them about do you have a budget for groceries? Like, how much do you spend average on groceries? I do ask them, like, are there limits? How many mouths do you have to feed? Right? Do you lean on possibly financial support from other areas, right? I kind of ask those questions just so I'm sensitive and empathetic from what they're going through, right? Um, but I think as we go through the day and say, okay, like tell me how you prepare your meals, and I start hearing a lot of things are out of a microwave, or um, you know, I hear there's an issue with storage, I start kind of teasing out the idea that there's probably some barriers at home, even a functional barrier. I have some people that can't stand for long periods of times, right? So the idea of using any equipment might not even be an option, right? So there, there's, I think there's always different dynamics. But yeah, I think in my background, I was a clinical dietitian and did bedside education and it was a handout and a 10-minute discussion, and I walked off, right? So I never asked those questions because I didn't, I didn't, I didn't have time. But now it's like I get to really pull it out and then we get to make actual type of changes with the idea that they can do it within the realm of what they do without feeling like they have to be um, you know, have privilege to take care of their health, right?

No, you're so right. I started out as a clinical dietitian too, and you know, you'd get consulted for like a cardiac diet, and it's like you kind of look back and I laugh and I'm like, that was so not helpful, what I had shared and the little packet that I gave about, you know, low sodium, low fat foods. That's not what that patient needed at all. So I'm grateful for dietitians who really do unpack all of the other social determinants of health. And that's why it's really important to have you guys on the healthcare team. All right, I want to ask you a question that came through from my group of girls who are on uh like a thread. And these are, I would say, mid-30s to mid-40 year old women, and we were talking about nutrition. Of course, they asked me a tons of very nuanced questions. And one of them had asked me this, and I would love your perspective on how you would answer. She had said, How do you know when you are eating enough? So, to give you some context, we were talking about cortisol levels because I saw something on Instagram, and I had to like, you know what, let's just really focus, go back to the basics, exercising at least two to three times a week. They're already doing weight training because we're in like a CrossFit group. And and then I had mentioned a well-balanced diet and make sure you're eating enough. And that was her follow-up question. Like, how do I know if I'm eating enough? So, how would you answer that question?

That's a good question. I think obviously, like, we could focus on the intuitive approach, like listen to your body and like obviously hear it and be full. But some people you know lack the ability to be full or be hungry sometimes. So it is very hard based on stress. I'm talking about cortisol and stress levels, right? The idea is like that ebbs and flows. For most of my clients, and I hate to say it, this obviously like with the my plate becoming um obsolete recently. I tell people the idea is if you can follow a template or a puzzle, like in this puzzle is filled by the foods that you need throughout the day. I tell them like we want three meals. But the idea is I always tell them I use like the hand. I use the hand when it comes to nutrition. I'm like, if you could look at your hand and use it as a tool of measure of what is considered enough, I tell them that you look at the palm of your hand, it's the whole try-and-fruit protein thing. For most people, that's about how much they would need. So I tell them, I'm like, look at your plate. Is that about how much protein you have, right? I say, now we need fruits and vegetables, right? We want to have those with our meals because I said no one's ever died from eating fruits and vegetables unless they're allergic. So the idea is think of baseballs, think of two baseballs, right? So now you have two baseballs of fruits and vegetables, and then you have about a handful of brain or something of that nature, right? My biggest thing is I have them then turn it back on me and say, okay, I'm telling them, make a meal based on that. Like, okay, I would do this, this, and this. Okay. So now I'm like, now you have a visual of what your meal should look like, right? Now you go out and you do that three times a day, right? And then in that way they can kind of follow what would be what be needed for their body. And then I do, I double. Now, based on that, you look at the physiological things. Are you getting hungry? Are you getting full? Are you getting gassy, bloated? Maybe we dial back a little bit on some of those foods, right? We kind of go from there. Now, are you more active? Are you focusing on exercising, prospect, things of that nature, right? We look at higher amounts of protein and kind of mesh with that. The idea is I think I like to follow a template. So when they are putting a meal together and we meet again, I'm like, okay, how'd you fill out that template? How did you fill out that puzzle, right? Um, I don't use the my plate specifically, but it is pretty much what I'm I talk to my patients about. But I would say I have them do that to a tea. And then I tell them, like, how do you feel based on that? Are you full? Did you make it to the next meal without snacking? Is there is that gap filled? Or are we snacking or are we getting super hungry at night, right? Because then we want to evaluate, was it enough, right? Because sometimes hunger at night is a screaming signal that we didn't do enough during the day. So there's a lot of different things there. The one thing I know that a lot of like where I'm at in Florida specifically, a lot of different cultures, I want them to take that and match it to their culture. I don't want them to Americanize their meals. I want them to eat what they they like to eat, right? So the idea is like, how can you take that and eat like you always have eaten without feeling like you have to go eat a salad? Because if salad wasn't part whole for the much you want to eat, then we need to find food that fits your needs. So uh it's definitely uh, I think important to do those things.

I love that you start with a template, and I think that's really helpful and easier for patients as well. We do like to follow something, especially if someone is starting out from zero, right? They've maybe never even thought about what they're putting into their body. Having some some form of a template can be helpful. And I agree with you. I love my plate. I think it's a great visual, I think it's a great educational tool. So I'm very sad that the government guide guidelines no longer use that. But I think it's still a wonderful place to start. And then I love that you tailor it to that patient because it's not perfect for everybody, but it's a great starting point. And then you're right, we maybe need to add in more carbs, or maybe we need to decrease the carbs and add in more protein, right? Depending on all the things that you mentioned, physical activity, age, gender, things like that. What other um types of, I would say templates, um, for lack of better words, or frameworks do you like? I just recently had on the podcast an endocrinology PA and we talked about pairing protein with carbohydrates. Are there any other kind of nutrition tricks or frameworks that you like to use with your clients? And this could be for any kind of medical condition.

And I think I don't know a long time ago. This is probably not even from a dietitian, but it was called like the PFC, right? Protein, fat, carbohydrate, right? I tell them, like, if you at the very least focus on those three things in a meal, you've got a meal, right? So I think the idea is that you're lacking any one of those food groups, we need to add it, right? And so we talk about what kind of protein, like lean protein. Then you have carbohydrate, we talk about complexity, right? Adding those things in and then making some meal has fat, right? I think for most people, I'll they keep it as simple as that sometimes. But I think I've used that PFC mindset with a lot of things. But I I want to say it was probably like a bodybuilder or like a weight trainer person that said that and it stuck with me. But as a dietitian, I think keeping that simple is a good tool as well.

At what point do you think a clinician, so we'll talk to the PAs, should they be thinking in their mind, oof, this might be more than what I can handle or what I can do in a primary care visit? At what point do you think they should be thinking that?

I think we we alluded to the idea, like there's a time constraint, right? If they know that they can't unpack someone's nutrition history in a 20-minute evaluation alongside medicine, I think that's a big red flag here that a PA could obviously see and do that as well. I think if someone says obviously they struggle with um their relation with food, right, we might need to tag in a dietitian and possibly a therapist, right? So I think sometimes getting the patient open up about like their connection with food would open that door of saying, hey, maybe a dietitian needs to be part of this team. Um obviously some managing chronic illnesses, if there's things like diabetes, heart disease, digestive health concerns, that a PA can obviously do the, they can focus on obviously some of the groundwork of that disease. And maybe a dietitian needs to dive a little bit deeper into um foods that affect digestive health, right? I am working with a few PAs that are part of gastro groups. They are gonna probably not focus on an hour-long discussion on FODMAPS or something like that, that maybe is a little bit more involved than a 20-minute discussion because what happens is a piece of paper is given. And I would say if a PA or an ND or NP is giving out a piece of paper, it should also come with a referral to a dietitian, right? So the idea is like this is a great starting point, but you need more support from someone who really is going to be in this with you, and that dietitian would be a great option.

Oh, you are speaking my language. I totally agree with you because especially when you said FODMAP, I kind of cringed a little bit. I I think it's a fantastic and a helpful um elimination diet, but not in primary care, unless you're GIPA, unless you have a dedicated visit for that one specifically, because giving a patient a handout of high FODMAP, low FODMAT FOOBs, and being like, here, try this and only eat low FODMAP foobs is so inappropriate and so not helpful. And that's again, I love that. If you said if you're handing, giving the patient a handout on something nutrition, agree it should also come with a referral to a dietitian. Which brings me to my next question. For my PAs or medical providers who might not know, can you please kind of explain what does a registered dietitian actually do in a session with a patient? And you can give a couple of scenarios if you need, because I know this looks different if you're working with an IBS patient versus someone who needs to lose weight versus a patient with diabetes. So let us know and give us like an inside look at like what do you actually do and what do you tell our your patients?

Definitely. I think the biggest thing is in the world I live in, I may be referred to from a provider or I go in cold and don't know anything about the patient, right? So there is sometimes where I have a referral. I've got an HP, I've got some actually information on medical history. And sometimes I have nothing to go off of, and I'm doing a full HP as myself as a dietitian. So I think the biggest thing is I dive into people's medical history, medications, supplements, their family history. Um, then we dive into the diet. We spend a good chunk of the time talking about breakfast, lunch, dinner, likes, dislikes, aversions, things like that, and the appointment. And then what we want to do at that point is I mold the medical side, all the history, the family history, the social determinants. I look at the diet, and then we kind of roll it together and we create a plan based on what the teacher wants to be. So at that point, they may say, I want to lose weight, I want to improve my blood sugar, I want to do a certain thing. We plan that over a certain time period based on what they know, what they're able to do. Pretty much I have them kind of create their own goals. I give them my advice about what to do next, and then we create a plan that holds them accountable. And what I like to do too is I might dive into the medication and what it does for nutrition. I might talk about maybe an acid and how it blocks certain absorption of certain nutrients, right? That they need to kind of know I'm not against medication. I also talk about the physiological physiology. If they really want to know when they eat something, I love to draw a picture. I love, I'm a very visual person. I will draw the entire digestive track on a board and I will explain what happens in the guide in a 20-minute conversation. So when they know when they eat a certain fruit, food or vegetable or whatever, they're knowing what's happening on physiologically. So next time they eat that food, they know what's internally going on. So imagine cramming that into 20 minutes or less at a bedside or in an exam room. Like it's it's a lot that we go into. So, but yeah, there are nuances. Every condition's different. Um, I'm a generalist, so I see everything from children all the way to 100-year-olds. So my hat has to shift every time I see somebody.

So, from what I gather, you're telling me that you don't just write meal plans for every patient that comes in through your door. Is that correct?

That is correct. Yeah. I I tell people if they want a meal plan that's going to probably fail. Like in my opinion. And I'm like, you could Google that and it it won't work. I mean, majority of people it won't work. Some people are very hard and they'll they'll do those things. But I think for us people, there's a lot of habits getting in the way before that happens.

Yeah. Do you know the amount of hours I spent when I was a brand new dietitian? This was like 15, uh, 18 years ago, handwriting or handwriting. Typing meal plans that patients never followed. They they want a meal plan. They say they want to be told what to eat. But then when you provide it, what happens is real life. You know, they go out to dinner, they have a function, or they're not feeling it that day, or they don't want the tuna fish sandwich that you had written down for a Wednesday for lunch, right?

So one thing I like to do is take the patient will give me their day, their meals for the day. We'll talk about what they eat. And what we use to make subtle adjustments to those meals. Cause I think that's more valuable than anything. Because they're like, well, I can't eat rice. I have diabetes. And I'm like, let's talk about portioning and adjusting because you can still have rice. So the idea is like, I'm not gonna say take it away or tell you to eat tofu. Because I always joke with the patients. I'm like, I'm not gonna leave, you're not gonna leave here with me telling you tofu. And they're like, well, good, because I thought that's what this was gonna be about.

And I think a lot of referring providers don't really understand or know what dietitians do. So they don't know what to say when they make the referral to a dietitian. So like, okay, I know I don't have enough time or I don't know enough about nutrition, I want you to see a dietitian. But like, what do you think a clinician should tell a patient? Like, I'm gonna refer you to a dietitian for what?

I think the biggest thing is I think if they understand what what medical nutrition therapy is, like what we're doing, because I think, yeah, if we are the food people and the meal people, it becomes very siloed as to what we do. I think knowing that we have the understanding of the pharmacotherapy, the medicine, the amount of education I think dietitians have, and I think a lot of providers don't realize. I mean, people think it's like a weekend certificate, right? So the idea is as thorough as we are, I think you're gonna say, I'm referring to your dietitian. They're gonna dive into some of the medical connection with your nutrition. They're gonna really dive into how you eat on a day-to-day basis and actually come up with a plan that's gonna help you actually make improvements to your health. And that's gonna be spent over a longer period of time so you can get that support you need, right? Because I think that it that that allows them to understand that I trust this person. They're gonna look out for my well-being and then they're actually gonna be very thorough because they're gonna be medical providers just like we are, right, as PAs, but they're gonna obviously dive a little bit deeper into and connect that nutrition. I think a lot of PAs might refer to a dietitian and think that, oh, this person's gonna tell them not to eat anything or avoid foods or be restricted. So, but we're all on the same team, right? We're all trying to provide the best level of care we can.

Dieticians are really, really good at making the plan work for the patient based on their lifestyle and their goals, and they're fantastic at behavior change. I think that's one area where in medicine, in a medical visit, we don't have the time for. I don't have the time for unpacking. Why are you struggling with this? Dietitians are wonderful with that. Would you agree that you really work on behavior change with patients?

Yeah, I think because we can ask those deeper questions of the why, right? Be um ask them why they believe the way that they believe or what they can do, right? Really get them to think big picture. And why do we do the things that we do? I have a client this morning, he was he drives down the road at work every day, and every day he sees a Wawa gas station and he always goes and gets a coffee, right? But why are we doing that? He's like, Well, I'm really hungry at that time. And it's like, okay, what's going on at work before you leave work? It's like, well, like, you know, in my day I'm rushed, I'm stressed, and then I haven't eaten since eight o'clock in the morning. And we realize that he needs a snack before he leaves work, right? So it's like those things, but I think it's those behaviors that are created, and we have to address those. And by asking someone what happens all day, you wouldn't know that even exists. He drives by a Wawa every day and there's a problem, right?

Okay, we have spoken kind of to my referring providers on how and what they should say when they refer to a dietitian, but I want to shift gears a little bit and speak to dietitians. I have a lot of listeners who are in private practice, and it's it's hard to get referrals. And so you have made a very successful business and you know, you've got a private practice, and you said that you work with a lot of, you know, GI prescribers. And so I would really love to kind of get some business tips and advice on how do you cultivate those relationships so that you are getting referrals.

I think the biggest thing is if you are interested in going into private practice, especially even if you're a clinical dietitian like I was, right? Networking is very valuable, right? So the one thing is I think collecting as many contexts as you can get if you're gonna go in that realm of private practice is important, first off, right? The second part is determining how you're gonna get paid, right? Most people can get paid by insurance, some people will do cash. You need to determine which route you're going into. But if you're looking at people to refer to you, I tell people as a general rule, if they take insurance, you probably need to take insurance. So the biggest thing is be aware that you have to have that as an option because if you go into an office and say, you know what, I'm this amazing GI dietitian and they are a medically practice and you are trying to get referrals, it may not be a good fit for you to like that. Relationships really will matter when it comes to being a dietitian because the one thing, and it was a quote has someone said that obscurity is the worst thing for a dietitian. But if someone knows you exist as a dietitian, you're the only known dietitian at that point and be the best you can be. But make yourself known before you worry about all the little pieces of running a business. The more people that know you, the more people that will refer to you. So I think the biggest thing in negative information is to like get out there, get known, um, be confident, mentorships, work with dietitians that are running in private practice and connect with them. I think the biggest thing is being confident to tell people that you're gonna alleviate some stress, be a part of their team, be a great communicator, um, and that you're gonna pretty much help them, their patients, be less stressful to them. I think if we had dietitians create more value to a provider that refers to us, it's gonna make their life a lot easier and their relationship build even more.

Those are really good tips. And you know, it's really true. I I see it now from the PA side of things. And I have had, I've been a PA for nine years in the same practice in the same company, same office, and I have had one dietitian reach out to me. One. And I live in a pretty affluent, pretty big county. I know there are other dietitians. We have a ton of local pediatric hospitals. Like I know you guys are out there. And that just makes me a little frustrated because I do have a lot of picky eaters, underweight kiddos, overweight kiddos that I I would love to refer you them to a dietitian, but I don't know who you are. So, really, this is just like a great message to a dietitian. Like, go and be present either in an office. If they can't spend time with you, shoot an email, leave a packet, offer to do a free lunch and learn, or you know, like be really creative. But we do want to refer our patients, I promise you. So make yourself known. I think, Devin, that's a really, a really impactful, helpful piece of advice. All right. Well, this has been such a cool conversation. I love the direction that we took it. I learned so much about kind of counseling and this, the questions that you ask as a dietitian to help guide your patients. And you're very active online and you've got a lot of stuff going on for you. So tell my listeners where they can connect with you online and how they can just follow you and all your work that you do.

Yeah, so they can follow me. So my tag is at the at the VitalRD. So that is my nutrition company. So that's the consulting group. I also do business coaching at Dietitian Practice Pro. So I do coaching and help dietitians run their business. Um, also, if you're involved with the Academy of Nutrition, I'm a board member for the state of Florida. So I'm the incoming treasurer for the Academy of Nutrition for Florida. Um, I'm also involved in the national PPC alongside the past presidents of the Academy for National. So I mean, there's a lot of ways to connect with me. Um, I'm on Facebook, I'm ever present in a lot of the groups and also on LinkedIn under Devin Brigham as well. So I mean, but those are a lot of areas to connect as well. And they're welcome to email me too.

I will link to all of his socials down in the show notes below. Definitely connect with him. He's a wealth of information. But Devin, thank you so much for the gift of your time. I appreciate you being here today.

Thank you, Colin. I appreciate it.

And thank you for carving out some time for nutrition this week. I will see you next week. Have a great day.